My Permanent Debate Theist (MG) states that if there is a temporary infinity in the past, it is impossible to achieve the present, because you need to participate in an infinite number of events before you can come to the current event. He introduced an analogy with an “infinite staircase”: if you climb such a ladder, you will never reach the top. However, he has very confused his own analogy, as the next series of exchanges between many moons that I have put together demonstrates.
My main difference here is that if you have a limited life and you started a long time ago, you obviously can’t achieve the present. However, if you are lucky enough to have an infinite lifespan, such as a quark (which cannot be created or destroyed), then there is no problem. The end life can only pass through the final period of time; endless life has no such limitations.
“Note: previous exchanges have led to the following exchanges.”
MG – So you have a series in which each event is closer to the line than the previous one, and eventually the series ends on that line. An endless series can’t. It’s like having an infinite number of steps on the stairs, but you pretend to have just reached that top. It’s inconsistent. “
JP – If you had to climb an endless ladder, why would you claim to have reached the top? We already agree that infinity has no end, that is, the tops.
MG – “If you agree that you can’t climb to the top of an endless staircase and see someone upstairs, the correct conclusion is that the stairs in the end were not infinite!!”
JP – Ho! 1) It is wrong to use the word “you” because “you” is the final event, and 2) you have destroyed all logic by saying, “you see someone upstairs.” Since I said that infinity has no end point, it is illogical for me to say that I see someone (again misleading because someone is also the ultimate event) at the end point.
MG – “Scale is a series of past events (not ‘moments’; ‘events’ such as the Civil War, my breakfast this morning, etc.), and it ends with a current event (I print this sentence) because that’s what “the past” means. I’m outside all the stages of the PAST series of events and I’m on top (current event). But as you said, you can’t reach the top of an endless staircase. Hence, the past is not infinite.”
JP 1 – It’s more than possible to go from the infinite past to “here-and-like” if you have an infinite lifespan. It’s a simple concept.
JP 2 – Of course you can’t because people have the ultimate life expectancy, but that doesn’t mean it’s impossible, especially if you don’t actually have the ultimate life expectancy. Now, if you take endless time and endless events, the two infinitys neutralize each other, and you will have only time and events. You can view any number of events if you have enough time. You can skip an infinite number of events if you have an infinite duration. I’m just going to replace something that doesn’t have the ultimate life (like “you”) with something that has, say, an up-quark. It doesn’t matter when you want to fight your first thing. Just tell me how old the upquare is.
MG – “It was a current event, just as every step of stairs below me was once the current stepping stone. I still can’t make the endless climb up the stairs. This is logically inconsistent. It even challenges your definition of ‘infinity’. and you know it. “
JP – Of course, you can’t climb the endless stairs because your event is time-limited. But if something (like an upward quark) is a temporary endless “event,” then I don’t see a problem.
MG – “So your argument: “OK, I agree that you can’t get to the top of the endless stairs, but … I think this infinite particle MUST do it because it’s here and that it’s infinite?”? “
JP – Proof of pudding in food. A temporary infinite particle, like an upward quark, is here and now. As far as I know, it was dug in the wormhole, but here it is.
MG – “
JP – But the proof lies in the pudding. The cosmos is endless, but there are particles here and now. Take this! Despite the fact that there is an infinite past and an infinite future, your concept of the “present moment” in which we find these particles must be somewhere on this timeline. Call it High Noon in New York (NYC). It was noon in New York the day before. The next day in New York noon. There is no problem for time travel through this final interval between noon and noon after “the present day” – a period of 48 hours. The existence of an infinite past/future does not matter. Now just keep pushing this concept back and forth, as far back as you can imagine.
MG – “In this particle’s reference system, something is happening right now, no matter how other countdown systems see it now.” And if its life expectancy is infinite, it has passed and completed a truly infinite number of events to the current matrix. It’s happening now. It’s true? “
JP – Yes.
MG – “But it can’t go through an infinite number of steps to a point; it would be like climbing an endless staircase and getting to the last step. It’s impossible. You’ve already agreed. Like R,” you continue to agree with both principles, but refuse to accept the conclusion.”
JP – If you have a limited life, you can go on a completed journey. For the same reasons, if you have an endless life, you can go on an endless journey (i.e. infinity to the point you call), even if you still have an endless journey ahead of you. Infinity (from the past to the “point”) plus infinity (from “point” to the future “always equals infinity.
M.G. – “I fully understand that you say that a particle with an infinite time of life may be at the center of an infinite number of events, but I say that in reality it cannot have a number. Endless events, FINAL up to their current. The event, because it is conceptually equivalent, would mean climbing the HIGH staircase of endless levels. Do we agree with this (besides, what alternatives should there be, for example, creating matter/energy or something else)? “
JP – No. Wouldn’t you agree that your infinite God could not have done an infinite number of things before the creation of life, the universe, and everything else according to 1 and 2? If your God could do this, an infinite particle could do the same. If your God could not perform an infinite number of events before His “In the beginning,” then He is no longer so omnipotent, is he?
MG – “No, even God could not commit a truly infinite number of events before the point … The completion of a truly infinite sequence before the point is logically incompatible. This violates the concept of “infinity.”
JP – Wau! Here I thought that your invisible magical man in the sky could control time. I admit I’m wrong. Pity! I think that means that a particle with an infinite lifespan is more powerful than your invisible magical man in the sky.
MG – “But you have recognized that an endless series of stages cannot be completed, and that an infinite long-lived particle would have gone through an infinite number of events prior to its current event. It’s like saying that “an endless staircase can’t go.” right up to the top, and yet this particle did it. It contradicts itself … “
JP – Speaking of contradictions, “endless sport” and “top” is a logical contradiction that absolutely does not deserve you. In all cases, the answer is no. Although the particle has reached only half the top of your scale, it has survived an infinite number of steps.
M.G. – “So the problem with reaching the top of an infinite staircase is not that it is logically impossible to pass infinity; just a climber hasn’t lived long enough? That’s absurd. You can’t walk through an infinite number of steps. completed to the point, because the concept of infinity is that it never ends, but then you put it aside if it means that the particle had to do something that is logically impossible, otherwise your worldview must be adjusted, and the past has a beginning. “
JP – While all answers are answers, not all answers are answers! This is the huge difference between what has infinite life (such as a particle) and what has the ultimate life (like you). You can’t climb the endless stairs and live to tell a story; elementary particle can be stored.